Strange sickness on L95

[SoToNgMaN]

This is my first encounter of Plecos with such complex sickness so I'm pretty much *confused* for this encounter ... comments from all appreciated ... :D

Yesterday am called upon to do A&E for a batch of L95s ... tried to take pics ... but handphone camera aint that capable I'll say .. so did some major touchup on the pic with photoshop

[Click for larger pic]
http://www.plecoclub.org/forum/imagehosting/thum_147314fb1c5960.jpg (http://www.plecoclub.org/forum/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=274)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Human_eye_cross-sectional_view_grayscale.png

Attention on rim around eye area and white spots near head region .. observations:
White spots surrounds rim of IRIS region (eye)
Pus or clouding can be seen LENS region and Retina region
White spots can be seen on armoured plates on head and tail region
no white spots on belly
No popping eye
secondary infections: peeling/flaking cornea (outer eye) can be seen on some specimens.


Background knowledge:

Bare tank running on 2 sponge filters (no possibility of poor water parameters resultant from poorly maintained filters)
Water parameters should be pretty optimal considering its running on 24/7 drip change system
Unlikely to be resultant of PH or Chlorine burns cos water change is done via dripping
No ammonia or foul smell from tank
L95 is logically immune to white spots but pretty prone to chlorine & PH burns
Its confirmed white spots, cos fanning or rubbing of spots with fingers doesnt come off


Contradictions

Cloudy eye is normally caused by bacteria infections resultant from poor water paramters

water seems pretty optimal .. though water temp is 23-25 degrees cos housed in air-con room

L95 is immune to white spots

If its really white spots ... belly region should be infested by white spots as well
White spots on eye region is new


Current Rectification Solution

50% water change with replenishing done via slow drips
Addition of heater to 28 degrees > white spots should significantly increase to other fish regions at this temperature
3rd Gen Internal and Melafix added to rectify eye issue
Aquarium salt 0.1% added (may contradict white spots increasing intentions on heater, but being conservative I'll say add this and spot for whitespots on belly)
No feeding throughout medication process to maintain optimal water conditions ... (plecos can last without food for 2 weeks at least)


Comments all?

[lyh]

Bro never say white spots will not occur on L95. Maybe the reason why there is no spots on the belly is because it is lying on the ground or just that it has not reached there only? And hor please tell your friend to do WC daily if possible hor cos when you increase the water temp the white spots will hatch faster and drop on tank floor.;)

[Edmundo]

Who say L95 is immune to white spots? Who say white spots will immediately spread on the whole body? :confused:

[SoToNgMaN]

Maybe the reason why there is no spots on the belly is because it has not reached there only? And hor please tell your friend to do WC daily if possible hor cos when you increase the water temp the white spots will hatch faster and drop on tank floor.;)
Reason to add heater to increase temp is to hasten process and confirm that its white spots ...

cos accelerated white spots should reach belly .. then we can conclude its white spots liao ..

Who say L95 is immune to white spots? Who say white spots will immediately spread on the whole body? :confused:
I say lah *slap u* ... I cant conclude on my theory which speaks why I use the word "logically" ...

White spots dun spread immediately .. thats why add heater to see if white spots will spread to belly or other areas or not .. if yes confirm white spots liao ...

but adding of salt may oppose effect of heater though thats another concern of mine ...

*aiyoh aiyoh*

[SoToNgMaN]

*no worries or concerns for commentary on this thread*

No one is perfect which speaks why everyone is learning ... I am no exception to prior as well ...

hopefully I'll receive some status from owner of these L95s ...

[benny]

Status update: Not dead yet.

3 struggling. 1 like going to go these few days.

[SoToNgMaN]

Status update: Not dead yet.

3 struggling. 1 like going to go these few days.
hows the white spots?

got shift or numerical difference?

[benny]

No have. Only one. Looks more like dirt today. 3 other fish are clean of spotting on the body.

Cheers,

[SoToNgMaN]

No have. Only one. Looks more like dirt today. 3 other fish are clean of spotting on the body.

Cheers,
Good to hear that the other 3 are clear of spotting ...

Do remember to repeat course of "internal bacteria medication" for another week meaning 2 weeks in total .. :D

[Edmundo]

Reason to add heater to increase temp is to hasten process and confirm that its white spots ...

cos accelerated white spots should reach belly .. then we can conclude its white spots liao ..


I say lah *slap u* ... I cant conclude on my theory which speaks why I use the word "logically" ...

White spots dun spread immediately .. thats why add heater to see if white spots will spread to belly or other areas or not .. if yes confirm white spots liao ...

but adding of salt may oppose effect of heater though thats another concern of mine ...

*aiyoh aiyoh*

*no worries or concerns for commentary on this thread*

No one is perfect which speaks why everyone is learning ... I am no exception to prior as well ...

hopefully I'll receive some status from owner of these L95s ...

aiyo... misunderstding lar..... your post always so profound, and sound so conclusive, so clarify abit mah.... moreover, england is limit on me, so cant read u well..... learning of cos we are...... hopefully the right side mah.... :)

[Edmundo]

This is my first encounter of Plecos with such complex sickness so I'm pretty much *confused* for this encounter ... comments from all appreciated ... :D

Yesterday am called upon to do A&E for a batch of L95s ... tried to take pics ... but handphone camera aint that capable I'll say .. so did some major touchup on the pic with photoshop

[Click for larger pic]
http://www.plecoclub.org/forum/imagehosting/thum_147314fb1c5960.jpg (http://www.plecoclub.org/forum/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=274)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Human_eye_cross-sectional_view_grayscale.png

Attention on rim around eye area and white spots near head region .. observations:
White spots surrounds rim of IRIS region (eye)
Pus or clouding can be seen LENS region and Retina region
White spots can be seen on armoured plates on head and tail region
no white spots on belly
No popping eye
secondary infections: peeling/flaking cornea (outer eye) can be seen on some specimens.


Background knowledge:

Bare tank running on 2 sponge filters (no possibility of poor water parameters resultant from poorly maintained filters)
Water parameters should be pretty optimal considering its running on 24/7 drip change system
Unlikely to be resultant of PH or Chlorine burns cos water change is done via dripping
No ammonia or foul smell from tank
L95 is logically immune to white spots but pretty prone to chlorine & PH burns
Its confirmed white spots, cos fanning or rubbing of spots with fingers doesnt come off


Contradictions

Cloudy eye is normally caused by bacteria infections resultant from poor water paramters

water seems pretty optimal .. though water temp is 23-25 degrees cos housed in air-con room

L95 is immune to white spots

If its really white spots ... belly region should be infested by white spots as well
White spots on eye region is new


Current Rectification Solution

50% water change with replenishing done via slow drips
Addition of heater to 28 degrees > white spots should significantly increase to other fish regions at this temperature
3rd Gen Internal and Melafix added to rectify eye issue
Aquarium salt 0.1% added (may contradict white spots increasing intentions on heater, but being conservative I'll say add this and spot for whitespots on belly)
No feeding throughout medication process to maintain optimal water conditions ... (plecos can last without food for 2 weeks at least)


Comments all?

Comments here...........

1) why add gen 3 where the issue maybe well be external? base on the pic tat i see, i will treat base on white spots. heater is best to add to speed up recovery, add white spots medicine will do.
2) Melafix? i thot pimafix is more idea, since pimafix is more for fungus?

i realise that Gen 3 is always used among hobbyist whenever they find tat their plecos is "sick"...... useful? :confused:

[SoToNgMaN]

1) why add gen 3 where the issue maybe well be external? base on the pic tat i see, i will treat base on white spots. heater is best to add to speed up recovery, add white spots medicine will do.
2) Melafix? i thot pimafix is more idea, since pimafix is more for fungus?
Cloudy eye got 2 main types in general.

cornea damage, resultant usually from PH burns & chlorine burns ... occasionally abrasion from knocks ... etc ... (External)
clouding found in lens covering IRIS, usually from poor water paramters resulting in bacteria bloom causing infection to internal membrane (internal)
In scenarios of cloudy eye resultant from external: I'll advise melafix and 3rd Gen Anti-Bacteria for Internal ...

In above mentioned L95 case, there's both internal and external for cloudy eye which explains my recommendation of both 3rd Gen and Melafix.

Understanding of medicinal properties will assist one to use them appropriately.

3rd Gen Anti-Bacteria isnt effective against parasites like white spots, which explains my advise for salt addition to 0.1% ... as "Kiasu" preventive measure.

[benny]

Oops.

I dead. 3 still dying.

Cheers,

[akoh]

Bro, can you confirm whether those " white spots " move ?, are the L95s newly purchase ?

[SoToNgMaN]

Bro, can you confirm whether those " white spots " move ?, are the L95s newly purchase ?
L95s are new purchases ...

two dating around 2-3 weeks ago ... and another two recently 1-2 week ago ...

four QT into same tank ..

[akoh]

Could be external parasites ! those similiar to lices but they look like white spots from a distance.

[benny]

Nope. Not lice. I know what fish lice looks like and have examined the plecos at close range.

Sad.... I always have arse luck with plecos. Perhaps it's a sign....

Cheers,

[Gecko]

So sorry to hear about this....:(

[SoToNgMaN]

Could be external parasites ! those similiar to lices but they look like white spots from a distance.
see tomorrow got chance to pop down benny's place or not ...

try to take photographs with my camera .. :D

[SoToNgMaN]

Following pictures should be quite clear

[Inside mouth also got white particles]
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/195/mouthje9.jpg

[Under Portion]
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/4384/whitespotsmv9.jpg

[Eye Portion - White spots on eye can be seen]
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/411/eyeportionoh2.jpg

[Another View of Eye - Spots can be seen on eye, face dun have much spots]
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4936/eye2zf1.jpg

[benny]

Still not looking good. One of them tried to kill itself by jumping out of the tank. Lowered water level to 1/2 and continue medicating.

Switch from Melafix and salt to Taiyo's Disease Control. So far so good after 1st day. Just medicated 2nd dosage. Let's see...

Cheers,

[akoh]

Sorry bro, wish I can be of some help ! :(

[SoToNgMaN]

Sorry bro, wish I can be of some help ! :(
Bro .. ever seen anything like this in your past decade of pleco keeping?

I'm totally lost for this one as well ...

[akoh]

I probably mistaken it for " white-spot " and treat as usual ! as far no prob. leh ! :)

[benny]

Today no dead fish. All 3 lying there totally motionless. But not dead. So it's considered good news.

I think Taiyo Disease Control seems to be doing the job. One of the eyes seems to be clearer on two of the plecos. Heng ah!! But like they say..."Don't count your chickens before they hatch".

Stay tuned.

Cheers,

[akoh]

Bro, remember to do partial water change and repeat treatment. :)

[SoToNgMaN]

Good to hear positive news ...

prayers for the blind trio ..

[T1000]

hi, care to share what is taiyo disease control:confused:? avaliable locally?

[SoToNgMaN]

hi, care to share what is taiyo disease control:confused:? avaliable locally?
Chances that taiyo disease control is not available locally .. :(

heard that its available in taiwan though ..

[benny]

3 fish still alive. Medication working well. Have switched from daily dosage to alternate day dosage.

Cloudiness on the eyes of 2 of the plecos seem to be recovering. One of the pleco is still pale. It's also the one with the remaining eye problem. One of the pleco is also eating. So I assume it's a good sign.

I will continue with the medication till end of the week. Looks like I better go stock up on a case of TDC for future use.

Cheers

[akoh]

Champion ! :D

[SoToNgMaN]

benny .. if u have time .. do update us with photos .. :D

or maybe I pop down saturday nite .. :D

[Dimitri]

3 fish still alive. Medication working well. Have switched from daily dosage to alternate day dosage.

Cloudiness on the eyes of 2 of the plecos seem to be recovering. One of the pleco is still pale. It's also the one with the remaining eye problem. One of the pleco is also eating. So I assume it's a good sign.

I will continue with the medication till end of the week. Looks like I better go stock up on a case of TDC for future use.

Cheers


Bro, could the water parameters of that particular tank where you bought the fish from be the reason behind the disease???????????:confused: If I’m not wrong, you reserved the piece near the centre row of the shop right????????? The fishes that were in the tank after you took your L95 displayed those symptoms…………. I bought one from the same batch, the pc that you were eyeing (near the toilet), no issues with the fish (touch wood) so far, and it did not display any characteristics of the disease…………….:confused:

[Edmundo]

Good to hear tat the fish is recovering..... cheers :)

[SoToNgMaN]

Bro, could the water parameters of that particular tank where you bought the fish from be the reason behind the disease???????????:confused: If I’m not wrong, you reserved the piece near the centre row of the shop right????????? The fishes that were in the tank after you took your L95 displayed those symptoms…………. I bought one from the same batch, the pc that you were eyeing (near the toilet), no issues with the fish (touch wood) so far, and it did not display any characteristics of the disease…………….:confused:
fish before enter tank he bag liao ....

believe fish is already sick when its at farm ..

[lyh]

3 fish still alive. Medication working well. Have switched from daily dosage to alternate day dosage.

Cloudiness on the eyes of 2 of the plecos seem to be recovering. One of the pleco is still pale. It's also the one with the remaining eye problem. One of the pleco is also eating. So I assume it's a good sign.

I will continue with the medication till end of the week. Looks like I better go stock up on a case of TDC for future use.

Cheers

Bro, may I know why did you change to alternate day dosage? If I were you, I would continue to dose daily until all the fishes have recovered and are eating before dosing on alternate days

[benny]

Because instruction says serious disease dose every 24 hrs. Disease just dose alternate day. So I follow.

Cheers,

[SoToNgMaN]

Because instruction says serious disease dose every 24 hrs. Disease just dose alternate day. So I follow.

Cheers,
tomorrow (sat) cannot make it liao ...

things sudden crop up .. :(

anyway can always take photo when they have recovered :D

Cheers

[lyh]

Bro Benny and Sotong can you all please take a look to see if the white spots on the L95 look similar to what I have on my L330 here? This is a very old photo taken when my photography skill was lousy :D

Picture not very clear but can see the white spots on its eye and around the head portion. A layer of white coating formed over it after day 3 and it was found dead on day 4. One of my fav plec :(

http://www.plecoclub.org/forum/imagehosting/thum_5473e5f5b32d56.jpg (http://www.plecoclub.org/forum/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=277)

[SoToNgMaN]

Bro Benny and Sotong can you all please take a look to see if the white spots on the L95 look similar to what I have on my L330 here? This is a very old photo taken when my photography skill was lousy :D

Picture not very clear but can see the white spots on its eye and around the head portion. A layer of white coating formed over it after day 3 and it was found dead on day 4. One of my fav plec :(

Cannot see well from the picture leh ...

[benny]

Bro Benny and Sotong can you all please take a look to see if the white spots on the L95 look similar to what I have on my L330 here? This is a very old photo taken when my photography skill was lousy :D

Picture not very clear but can see the white spots on its eye and around the head portion. A layer of white coating formed over it after day 3 and it was found dead on day 4. One of my fav plec :(

http://www.plecoclub.org/forum/imagehosting/thum_5473e5f5b32d56.jpg (http://www.plecoclub.org/forum/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=277)

Cannot see details. But from the description, it certainly sounds like similar. Chris saw the white coatings over the eyes of my pleco. Just before they died, their eyes will sink in and stomach will be sunken.

Cheers,

[SoToNgMaN]

I'm seriously flawed in verbal representations ...

but attached picture from earlier post does show white coatings ... but this pic is more of secondary stage which covers the whole eye already .. white spots can be seen around eye region and even nostrils ...

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4936/eye2zf1.jpg

[lyh]

Cannot see well from the picture leh ...

I'll resize the picture and post again when I get home :o

Cannot see details. But from the description, it certainly sounds like similar. Chris saw the white coatings over the eyes of my pleco. Just before they died, their eyes will sink in and stomach will be sunken.

Cheers,

For mine they didn't have sunken eye and stomach when they died. By the way bro where did you get your medicine?

[valice]

It was from Taiwan. Think sG don't have.

[HeiYuEr]

will PP bath help in this case?? :confused:

just wondering nia :o

[benny]

will PP bath help in this case?? :confused:

just wondering nia :o

Not too sure.

Anyway, all 3 pieces are still alive. Eyes seem to be recovering. Hopefully full recovery by this weekend when I get back into Singapore.

Cheers,

[NKS8]

Not too sure.

Anyway, all 3 pieces are still alive. Eyes seem to be recovering. Hopefully full recovery by this weekend when I get back into Singapore.

Cheers,

benny,

i am pretty sure your L95 is not a case of white spots attack. by looking at the pic sotong posted, i reckon it is a bacteria infection very likely to be internal which is in the full blown stage. at this stage the symtoms will show at the external of the fish(very serious). another suspect could also be viral infection. this is even harder to cure. the cause is probably due to the fish not QT at all upon arrival.

many people mistaken that by introducing heater will cure white spots which is not 100% correct. when treating white spots (white is a species of external parasite not disease). usually sodium chloride (salt) + any type to anti white spots medication will do the job. the heater part is to enhance the healing process. as white spot is a parasite sticking on the body of the fish and research shows that they are not easy to kill when they are on the body, so by adding a heater of about 30 to 32 degrees, it will increase the fish metabolism rate and also causes the fish to me more active thus shaking the parasite off the body, only then when the parasite is off the body the med can kill the parasite more effectively. in addition by adding a heater, we are keeping the tempreture constant and this take away an important variable (flactuating temp) that is the main cause of white spots.
(only my two cents worth, all discussion welcome)

the remedy i recommened for your is in your PM. if you need them do give me a thinker at 96704946.

all the best to you and fish

cheers,

malcolm

[HeiYuEr]

Not too sure.

Anyway, all 3 pieces are still alive. Eyes seem to be recovering. Hopefully full recovery by this weekend when I get back into Singapore.

Cheers,


if you dont mind,i will like to take one pcs back n cure it myself.....if can :p

[HeiYuEr]

the remedy i recommened for your is in your PM. if you need them do give me a thinker at 96704946.

all the best to you and fish

cheers,
malcolm


brother.....how come i dont have pm from you :eek: :D

[NKS8]

brother.....how come i dont have pm from you :eek: :D

your fish got sick meh????

[benny]

Malcom,

Thanks for the kind offer and the information. It's helpful.

Went to check last night and all 3 pieces are still there. Externally, there seems to be no signs of problems. Eyes of two of the pieces seem to have totally recovered. One of them is eating. The other does not seem to be eating yet. Perhaps it's shy, but I do see fish waste in the tank and by asumption, it's too much coming from one fish.

The last piece has one of the two eyes recovered. The other eye does not have any whitish substance, but it's unusually dark. It prefers to float upside down and the stomach seems a bit sunken.

I continue medication. End of update.

Cheers,

[akoh]

Bro ! any update on their condition. Thanks. :D

[benny]

Today I visited them in their quarantine tank. All seems to be normal now. No upside down fishes. When I tested feeding, 2 out of 3 reacted to the feeding. The last one still does not seem to be eating yet, but no sunken stomach. Perhaps it's shy.

I think I would consider them as recovered. I have some more pending specimen to be added to this group. Let's see how.

Cheers,

[SoToNgMaN]

Today I visited them in their quarantine tank. All seems to be normal now. No upside down fishes. When I tested feeding, 2 out of 3 reacted to the feeding. The last one still does not seem to be eating yet, but no sunken stomach. Perhaps it's shy.

I think I would consider them as recovered. I have some more pending specimen to be added to this group. Let's see how.

Cheers,
if yah got time ... can help take photo to show us?

or sotong's mobile photography is always available .. :D

[benny]

You can always come have a look next Sat if you have time. I only get to see them on weekends if I'm around anyway.

Cheers,

[Mr.XPlecos]

i do realise that my L95 have on off cloudy eyes since i got it like 3 weeks ago. is that normal?