Blue eye panaque = P. Suttoni / Suttonorum?

[Edmundo]

Hi Panaq-kis,

After reading Ingo Seidel's pleco book "Back to Nature, guide to L-numbers" i found this interesting literature.

it reads, " Panaque Cochlidon, aka Blue-eyed Panaque is formerly known as P. suttoni or P. suttonorum, a species which is native to northern Venezuela. Blue eyed panaque is found in the river systems of Orinoco, the Magdalena and the Amazon in tropical of Sounth Amercia."

Comment please?

[Edmundo]

See it in real............. the eyes are stunning! Thinking back, the most fruitful of the entire trip. the oni pleco with illuminated eye.

http://www.plecoclub.org/forum/imagehosting/247ece7186810b.jpg

[TRIX]

That's stunning...!!! So therefore those L137 we've seen are not right?

[Edmundo]

That's stunning...!!! So therefore those L137 we've seen are not right?

No. L137 are rusty. value diff by thousands. :)

[Edmundo]

Was led to this link......

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22667&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

[Badenser]

Hi,
No. L137 are rusty. value diff by thousands. :)
this is
L 137 Cochliodon soniae (http://www.l-welse.com/reviewpost/showproduct.php/product/151/cat/all)

http://www.binningeronline.de/Dateien/L137a.jpg

Rusty; Cochliodon spec. "Paraguay"
(http://www.l-welse.com/reviewpost/showproduct.php/product/922/cat/all)
http://www.binningeronline.de/Dateien/Cochliodon%20spec%20Para.jpg

looks really different:
Panaque cochliodon:

http://www.binningeronline.de/Dateien/HG/Panaque%20cochliodon3.jpg

[celticfish]

Gosh! :eek:
Thats a really handsome Panaque cochliodon specimen.
Thanks for sharing the picture Badenser!

[Edmundo]

Hi Badenser, thanks for enlightenment. By the way, can share any lights on P. Suttoni n Blue eye cochliodon?

[Badenser]

Hi,

thank you

Panaque suttoni is the false name the right name ist Panaque suttonorum.

Leonard Schultz described the blue eyed Panaque 1940 and gave him the name Panaque suttoni in accroding to Mr. and Mrs. Sutton.
But this was a mistake.

If a fish is named in according to a couple the ending of the name is- "-orum"
If a fish is named in according to a man the ending of the name is- "-i"
If a fish is named in according to a woman the ending of the name is- "-ae"

So Panaque suttonorum came from the Maracaibo Basin, but no further blue eyed Panaque were found there.
Some people (Numrich & Lucanus) tried to catch him there in 2001, without success. I´m not sure, but i think, the holotypus of the Panaque suttonorum is lost.

Panaque cochliodon is also a blue eyed Panaque and came from Rio Magdalena, Rio Cauca Colombia (described by Steindachner 1879).
Lots of people think all blue eyed Panaques swimming in the tanks are Panaque cochliodon,
and more and more are sure that there exists only one blue eyed and this is Panaque cochliodon, because this was was the first which was described.

So there are still little mysteries around the blue eyed Panaque. ;)

[soltari007]

With reference to the posting I read on planetcatfish, there are indeed differences in the two species. Allow me to quote:

"Those of us somewhat more familiar with P. suttonorum (AKA P. suttoni or Lake Maracaibo Blue Eyed Panaque), as of now, LM-BEP; in as far as the many years of pinpointing their actual habitat and due to the fact that they are one of our backyard fish - even if not common (more so since my family has several haciendas or farms in the Catatumbo and South Lake Region of the Lake Maracaibo Basin) in the State of Zulia are pretty clear as to the existence of two distinct species (or maybe subspecies) with very similar traits, though distiguishable to the eye of the not so trained.

In Colombia, on the West side of the Sierra Perija we have the Magdalena River Basin which is home to Panaque cochliodon (another Blue Eyed Panaque which we may refer to as the Magdalena River Blue Eyed Panaque or MR-BEP) with a very similar body color to the LM-BEP.

The Magdalena Fish is flatter (horizontally compressed) and less compact while the Lake Maracaibo species is a higher, stockier fish.

Some authors (esp. Schultz) refer white markings on body and fins of suttonorum but these are age/stage related traits not present in all specimens.

The Colombian Magdalena BEP is more readlily available and is many times sold at a reasonable price. Four or five years ago I saw a lot being sold at USD 15.00 a piece in Baranquilla. Of course, speculators will offer them at a much higher price.

A little over a year ago a couple of fishermen from Encontrados, Zulia, came upon some mature adult specimens in their seines while fishing in deeper lake waters near oil well platforms near the mouth of the Catatumbo River. This is a very clear and clean area of the Lake due to the number of large rivers that shed their water into the area (extreme South Lake Maracaibo) despite the Oil Industry activity.

The juvenile form prefers the middle and higher sections of the rivers in the area. We are not certain if the adults swim up the streams and rivers mainly to breed since large adults are not frequently found upstream.

Now there is at least one party that we know of, maybe more are doing it now, smuggling the LM-BEP into Colombia to export it. OTF exports in general are very hard to work from Venezuela for the moment since the "authority" is no more than one huge bribing machine and it makes any luxury product ridiculously expensive.

I can tell you first hand that Oliver did travel to Venezuela and clicked the right buttons in November 2007 and that he has received and sold more then 50 LM-BEP, mostly to reasonable Asian fanciers. He even sent me a pic of himself posing in front of a Chavez billboard (made my day? yeh right.) Oliver knows Zulian waters very well.

LM-BEP's cost is four low cyphers virtually at the source.

Ed
-------------------

Hi guys, I'm Edgar Ruiz (not Edwad or Edward) and I go by Ed. Been a member here for sometime but too busy administrating The Angelfish Study Group (TASG) / Finarama to enjoy here woth any frequency. I do know Shane from several years back when he was at the Embassy in Caracas and have exchanged opinions and updates with him on P. suttonorum for at least five or six years.

I'm a Venezuelan Biologist myself from Maracaibo, Zulia though I'm actually more American than Venezuelan and I live in SLC, Utah at present (I relocated from Venezuela in 2003).

The fact that I consider myself with some knowledge on P. suttorum and P. cochliodon is through my best friend and mentor Biologist Edgar Wilfrido Cabezas (Wil), an apprentice (in the late 70's early 80's) of Dr. Donald C. Taphorn. If you are not familiar with Dr. Taphorn's work in Ichthyosystematics, please google him up.

Though Wil would never take any credit as to the reapparition of "the Suttoni" I spent with him many hours and years hunting down this fish in the Lake Maracaibo basin, educating fisherman, talks and even trying to get cooperation from the authorities to protect this species.

Now and then we would catch some of these fish (I saw about a dozen in 25 years) but we were looking in the wrong places, following Leonard Schultz's trips to the Rio Motatan (an affluent shedding into Central East Lake Maracaibo) and the Rio Yaza, Rio Santa Ana and Rio Negro (nothing to do with the "Big" Rio Negro - this is a small mountain river up the Sierra Perija, the northernmost branchoff of the Andes Mountains) and from there South around the lake up the Rio Catatumbo, Escalante, Chama and many others.

Schultz had collected a total of seven juveniles from the Motatan and the Yaza, several tens of miles upstream from the actual Lake Maracaibo.

In January 2007, a first adult specimen (over 40 cms) was caught and killed. Shane, Oliver and I shared images of this dead fish which was later donated to the Zulia State University (LUZ) Museum of Science where it is preserved. I understand the images were provided by a Biologist from The Andes State University (Merida, Venezuela) and some others came from Dr. Taphorn and Wil.

Near April 2007 a large female was caught and this time, the fish was kept live and she is to this day at a friend's home in Maracaibo where I understand Wil now has several adult specimens (or at least a pair).

Once the location of the female was known and made public (as I said, on an oil well platform in the lake proper, near the Mouth of the Catatumbo River), fishermen and collectors started raiding the area by the hundreds.

And so, several dozens of the fish came out to the trade. Oliver got his hands on a nice bunch.

Prices for the P. suttonorum are awkward even at the source and their selling price is at minimum close to or over $2000.00 USD (FOB Montreal)

Exportation of OTF from Venezuela of this species I think is illegal or to some extent protected (I think it's on the CITES list), otherwise, wildlife can be exported but under "prohibitive conditions", that is, taxes and fees run so high that it's just not worth it... thnx to Mr. Chavez' regime. Three years ago, exports (OTF) were coming out regularly.

Nowday, Venezuelan OTF exporters have teamed up with Colombian exporters and basically sell to or partner with them. 99% of Venezuelan fish are exported through Bogota.

FARC doesn't normally bother the poor fisherman dealing with OTF but will give foreigners a hard time. if anybody knows Oliver personally, he can pass as a local fisherman as long as he doesn't open his mouth and that's just what he does. He's the mute helper on board.

As far as P. suttonorum or for the fact, P. cochliodon, coming from Brazil... never heard of that... but wonder if the information may have something to do with the fact that the Lake Maracaibo tributary Rio Negro has been identified in literature as a source of P. suttonorum and that this may cause the confusion... thinking Rio Negro, the amazon tributary (just a thought!). I wonder if I read somewhere of a P. cochliodon occurence in Brazilian territory?

Still, I would recommend a sharp eye if you are offered P. suttonorum at any price. They are not coming out in commercial quantities, they are hard to fish because they like deep water (5-10m), as far as I know, no one is offering large numbers and to get an ordered worthwhile quantity it can take several months, hence the high price tag.

On the other hand, P. cochliodon from the Rio Magdalena in Colombia (the river is about an 8 hr drive from Maracaibo, Venezuela) which was always more frequently available and always sold as Suttoni did become scarce for some five years... now they seem to be showing up in considerable numbers and with the recent findings of the Lake Maracaibo Blue Eyed Panaque is being sold as such, commanding very high prices.

If anyone has these pics and would like to be sure what they have, I can have Wil take a look at them (I could also be of help) and he will let you know for sure.

Ed"
http://planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22667&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=maracaibo

[Edmundo]

Hi,

thank you

Panaque suttoni is the false name the right name ist Panaque suttonorum.

Leonard Schultz described the blue eyed Panaque 1940 and gave him the name Panaque suttoni in accroding to Mr. and Mrs. Sutton.
But this was a mistake.

If a fish is named in according to a couple the ending of the name is- "-orum"
If a fish is named in according to a man the ending of the name is- "-i"
If a fish is named in according to a woman the ending of the name is- "-ae"

So Panaque suttonorum came from the Maracaibo Basin, but no further blue eyed Panaque were found there.
Some people (Numrich & Lucanus) tried to catch him there in 2001, without success. I´m not sure, but i think, the holotypus of the Panaque suttonorum is lost.

Panaque cochliodon is also a blue eyed Panaque and came from Rio Magdalena, Rio Cauca Colombia (described by Steindachner 1879).
Lots of people think all blue eyed Panaques swimming in the tanks are Panaque cochliodon,
and more and more are sure that there exists only one blue eyed and this is Panaque cochliodon, because this was was the first which was described.

So there are still little mysteries around the blue eyed Panaque. ;)

Great info.......... can believe that blue eye suttonorum is extinct? and wat we see in recent years are Blue eye cochildon which is another variant/species of blue-eye?

[soltari007]

Bro what I post you never read ah? P. suttonorum has been spotted....

No give face one lei...

[Gecko]

Bro what I post you never read ah? P. suttonorum has been spotted....

No give face one lei...

Hahahaa, I was wondering the same thing....even our 'new book' is outdated.....

[Edmundo]

Bro what I post you never read ah? P. suttonorum has been spotted....

No give face one lei...

Hahahaa, I was wondering the same thing....even our 'new book' is outdated.....

Thanks bros.

Too bad my england is not up to your level. im c6 standard, so may not understand clearly wat the writer may be implying. Hence may seem like asking stupid question.

Do pardon me, smarties........... :rolleyes: